Fortællinger Fra Mjølnerparken

Dansk:

Så, hvad har dine tanker været om parallelsamfundspakken?

Mine personlige tanker om parallelsamfundslovgivningen? Det er et interessant spørgsmål. Jeg tænker, at man selvfølgelig gerne vil have, at folk integrerer sig, og at man undgår små “parallelsamfund”. Men samtidig søger mennesker jo naturligt sammen dér, hvor de føler sig hjemme. Jeg kommer fra London, og i forskellige dele af London bor der forskellige grupper af mennesker. I Sydlondon bor der mange polakker. I Nordlondon bor der mange jøder. I Østlondon – og så videre. Så jeg synes egentlig, det er helt normalt. Hvis man kommer fra et andet land, er det jo ikke nødvendigvis et bevidst valg. Man kender måske nogen, der bor i et bestemt område, og derfor flytter man også selv dertil. Men over tid kan de områder måske blive mere og mere adskilt fra det øvrige samfund. Samtidig synes jeg også, at Danmark nogle gange har lidt for travlt med at gøre alle meget ens. Er det nødvendigvis en god idé, at hele samfundet bliver ekstremt homogent? Det ved jeg ikke.

Hvad er dine forbehold ved det?

Altså… det har både fordele og ulemper. Der findes ikke nødvendigvis ét rigtigt svar. Men personligt foretrækker jeg at bo et sted, hvor samfundet ikke er så homogent – hvor der ikke kun findes én “mainstream”-kultur, og hvor man bliver en outsider, hvis man ikke passer ind i den. Især i London kan man være lige den, man er. Man kan være, hvem man vil, fordi der findes så mange forskellige typer mennesker.

Ja, der er plads til alle.

Ja. Hvorimod hvis man ser på et land som Japan, så er det et ekstremt homogent samfund. Det har selvfølgelig nogle fordele. Men der er også store problemer forbundet med det. Hvis man ikke passer ind i den typiske måde at leve på, bliver man udstødt. Fra samfundet, fra sin familie – nogle gange bliver man nærmest afskåret fra dem, hvis man ikke passer ind i formen. Og i Japan ser man nu mange unge mennesker vende sig væk fra det etablerede samfund, fordi det ikke fungerer for dem. De socialiserer ikke. De bliver hjemme hele dagen og lever nærmest som moderne eneboere, fordi de føler, at de ikke passer ind i samfundet. Og så føler de heller ikke, at der er plads til dem. Så jeg synes, det vigtigste er at have et samfund, der er åbent og har plads til alle. Det handler måske ikke så meget om homogenitet eller ej, men mere om…

At være inkluderende?

Ja, præcis. At være inkluderende over for alle. Den mere homogene del af samfundet opstår jo måske også helt naturligt.

Hvor tæt har du fulgt parallelsamfundet?

Ikke så tæt i Danmark, hvis jeg skal være ærlig. Men jeg så, at EU-Domstolen vurderede dele af lovgivningen som diskriminerende. Og det er jeg enig i. Det er diskriminerende. For man kan have præcis den samme socioøkonomiske situation ét sted og et andet sted. Men hvis det ene område har mange ikke-vestlige beboere, og det andet hovedsageligt har danske beboere, så bliver det ene klassificeret som et parallelsamfund, mens det andet ikke gør. Så den del synes jeg er helt skæv. Problemet ligger også i definitionen. Jeg synes ikke, man burde definere det på den måde.

 Hvad føler du ville være en bedre måde at definere det på?

Tja, den diskriminerende del er den ikke-vestlige del, ikke? Det ville være fint, hvis de bare sagde, at hvis 40% af menneskene i dette område er arbejdsløse eller på sociale ydelser eller hvad det nu er, så er det teknisk set en ghetto. Jeg synes, det ville være en nogenlunde okay definition. Men den problematiske del er selvfølgelig at sige, at hvis du kommer fra denne del af verden eller den del af verden, så ændrer det det. Den del er fucked up. Helt klart. Ja. Jeg synes, det danske samfund er godt, fordi det er ret inkluderende sammenlignet med andre samfund, lad os sige det sådan. Men der er stadig plads til forbedring, selvfølgelig. 

Hvilke styrker eller muligheder synes du, der kunne ligge i parallelsamfundspakken? Er der nogle fordele ved den?

Ikke rigtigt. Jeg synes, at den slags forandringer bør komme gennem uddannelse, omsorg og fællesskab – ikke gennem myndigheder, der med tvang flytter mennesker rundt. Det synes jeg er helt forkert. Jeg synes, det burde komme nedefra og op gennem lokalsamfundet, ikke oppefra og ned fra staten. Det burde ikke være regeringen, der bestemmer: “Du må ikke bo her,” eller “Nu flytter vi de her mennesker.” For det skaber jo bare vrede og en følelse af uretfærdighed hos dem, det går ud over. Og det styrker deres oplevelse af, at systemet er uretfærdigt. Så i stedet for at bringe mennesker sammen, risikerer man faktisk at skabe endnu større splittelse.

Det giver rigtig god mening.

Ja. Jeg tror, det skal komme fra menneskerne selv. Derfor synes jeg også, at ting som fællescaféer og lokale initiativer er vigtige. Det skal komme fra lokalsamfundet – ikke bare fra politikere eller myndigheder, der siger, at nu skal bestemte mennesker flyttes.

Og nu hvor du bor her i Mjølnerparken, og du nævnte fællesskab, er der så noget, du drømmer om for kvarteret eller fællesskabet, som du gerne vil være en del af? Hvordan ville det for eksempel se ud?

Ja. Jeg synes, steder som fællescaféen er enormt vigtige, fordi de kan fungere som et afsæt for nye idéer. Jeg tror grundlæggende på, at de mennesker, der faktisk bor i et område, også er dem, der bedst ved, hvad området har brug for. Det er ikke nødvendigvis politikere eller folk udefra, der ved bedst, hvad problemerne er, eller hvad der vil fungere. Derfor tror jeg, at en fællescafé eller lignende steder er vigtige, fordi de giver folk mulighed for at udtrykke deres bekymringer og idéer om fremtiden. Hvad ønsker de for området? Hvilke ting vil de gerne se ske her? Og vigtigst af alt: det giver folk et sted at mødes. Det synes jeg er afgørende. At man kan tale sammen åbent, finde løsninger sammen, nå til enighed og skabe udvikling i fællesskab – i stedet for at nogen langt væk fortæller én, hvad der angiveligt er bedst for ens lokalområde. Jeg tror virkelig på, at de lokale mennesker ved bedst, hvordan området kan udvikles positivt.

Og nu hvor du er en del af lokalområdet?

Jeg kunne godt tænke mig at se endnu flere fællesskabsbaserede initiativer, fordi de bringer mennesker sammen. Jeg ved også, at der tidligere har været mange af den slags ting i Mjølnerparken. Men jeg føler måske, at da man spredte beboerne ud, havde det den modsatte effekt – det ødelagde ikke fællesskabet fuldstændigt, men det fragmenterede det på en eller anden måde. Og nu handler det om at finde en måde at samle det igen.

Hvad ser du dig selv kunne bidrage med som enkeltperson i forhold til at skabe fællesskab?

Jeg tror egentlig hellere, jeg vil blive en del af noget, der allerede eksisterer, og som allerede fungerer for de mennesker, der bor her. Jeg vil hellere støtte det, hjælpe det videre og være med til at styrke det – for eksempel steder som Café 30 eller andre lokale initiativer – frem for selv at komme med idéer om, hvad jeg mener burde fungere. Det hænger også sammen med det, jeg sagde før om folk udefra, der kommer og siger: “Det her virker et andet sted, så derfor vil det også virke her.” Jeg tror mere på, at lokale mennesker ved, hvad der fungerer bedst. Så min rolle ville nok være at støtte det, der allerede sker her, sammen med de mennesker, der allerede er en del af området, i stedet for at komme med mine egne løsninger på, hvordan alting skal “løses”. Jeg har jo kun boet her i få måneder. De mennesker, der har boet her i mange år, ved langt mere om, hvad de egentlige problemer er. Og måske har de også de bedste løsninger. Politikere og myndigheder ved jo ikke nødvendigvis, hvad der faktisk foregår her. Derfor er de heller ikke altid de mest kvalificerede til at finde løsninger. De mennesker, der virkelig er kvalificerede til at finde løsninger for området, er dem, der allerede bor her. Så min rolle er at støtte det – og støtte steder som det her, der giver folk en stemme og mulighed for at skabe forbindelser til andre mennesker i området.

Det synes jeg er et fair svar. Det jeg også hører dig sige er, at selvom området har været igennem store omvæltninger, så tror du stadig på at støtte det fællesskab, der allerede findes.

Ja, præcis. Jeg vidste faktisk ikke så meget om Mjølnerparken, før jeg flyttede hertil. Man kan jo kun finde en begrænset mængde information online. Så jeg vidste ikke særlig meget om, hvad der egentlig foregik her. Jeg har kun boet her i nogle få måneder, men nu er jeg blevet meget mere opmærksom på området og dets historie. Men selvfølgelig kommer jeg aldrig til at have den samme forståelse som nogen, der har boet her i ti år og har oplevet området både før og efter alle forandringerne. Så ja, jeg vil egentlig bare gerne lytte, støtte det fællesskab og se det vokse. Et fællesskab drevet af mennesker selv. Ikke bare komme hertil og sige: “Jeg har løsningen.” Det tror jeg ikke ville være særlig hjælpsomt.

Kendte du til Mjølnerparken, før du flyttede hertil?

Ja, jeg kendte godt til Mjølnerparken. Men jeg var ikke særlig bevidst om, hvad der faktisk foregik her, før jeg flyttede ind. Og det er jeg stadig ikke fuldt ud. Jeg har jo kun boet her i få måneder.

Kan du lide at bo her?

Ja, det kan jeg virkelig. Jeg er meget glad for fællesskabsaspektet her. Da jeg boede i Horsens, havde jeg en kolonihave, så jeg holder virkelig af den måde, mennesker kan skabe fællesskab omkring hverdagslivet på. Det synes jeg er noget af det fine ved området her. Men det er også lidt trist.

Jeg går bare mere op i lokalpolitik end nationalpolitik, du ved. Alle de nationale politikere, der taler om hvad som helst. Men vi har virkelig brug for lokale mennesker til at træffe beslutninger på lokalt niveau for faktisk at have en effekt på området. Det er lidt det samme som en velgørenhedsorganisation herfra, der tager til et fremmed land og prøver at hjælpe. Hvordan skal de vide, hvad der er hjælpsomt for det andet land? Det bedste, de kan gøre, er faktisk at tage derhen og støtte de mennesker direkte, men tage idéerne og løsningerne fra de mennesker, der faktisk bor der, og som ved, hvad der ville være bedst for området, frem for bare at påtvinge vores vilje på en tredjepart. Lokale mennesker ved, hvad der er bedst for lokalområdet. Så det er det, vi skal støtte. Det tror jeg er min afsluttende tanke. – Frem for bare at presse vores egen fortælling og det, vi tror, ned over dem. 

Det er en god afsluttende tanke.

---

English:

So, what have been your thoughts about the parallel society legislation?  

My personal thoughts about the parallel society legislation? It’s an interesting question. I think that … You do of course want people to integrate and not to have multiple small ‘parallel’ societies. But at the same time, people naturally congregate together where they feel like. I’m from London and in different parts of London you have different communities of people living. In South London you have a lot of Polish people. In North London you have a lot of Jewish people. East London, – yada yada. So I think it’s super normal. If you come from a foreign country, it’s not really a decision you make. It’s just that you know people who live in one area, so of course you’re going to move to that area. But then over time, those areas become more and more divergent from mainstream society, I guess. But I do think Denmark has a bit of a problem of trying to make everyone so homogenous in society. Is it a good idea to make the whole society, like, super homogenous? I don’t know. 

What are your reservations about it?  

Yeah, like… It has its benefits. It swings in roundabouts. There’s not necessarily one right answer. But personally I kind of prefer living in a place where it’s not such a homogenous society – Where there is not just “one” mainstream society, and if you’re not in that mainstream society, you’re kind of an outsider. Like, especially in London, you can be whoever you are. You can be whatever you want to be. Because there’s so many different types of people. 

Yeah, there’s space for everyone.  

Yeah. Whereas then if you look at a different country like Japan, that’s like a super homogenous society in Japan. It’s beneficial in some ways to have a super homogenous society. But in other ways, like in Japan, they have so many problems. Like, if you don’t fit into that typical way of life, then you are ostracized. From society, or from your family, or like, your family will disown you, yada yada. You know? Like If you don’t fit the mold. And now in Japan, so many young people are just rejecting mainstream society, because it doesn’t work for them. They’re not socializing. They’re just staying in their house all day, and they become like modern day hermits, because they feel like they don’t fit within society. So, then they feel like there’s no place for them within society. So I think it’s important to have a society that’s open and has a place for everyone. So it’s maybe not about being homogenous or not, but just about like… 

Being inclusive?  

Yeah. Being inclusive to everyone and being able… –You can have the homogenous side, but I guess that just comes naturally.

How closely have you been following the parallel society?  

Not that closely in Denmark, to be honest. But I did see that the European Court deemed it discriminatory. Which I would agree with. It is discriminatory. Because you can have the same… The exact same social economic situation in one place and another place. But one place has non-Western people. And the other place has Danish people. And one is classed as a parallel society and the other is just not. Yeah. So I do think that that part is fucked up. But also the definition… Like it’s a problem with the definition, I think. Like they should not define it in the way that they define it. Definitely not. Like that part is definitely fucked up. 

What do you feel like, would be a better way to define it?

Well, the discriminatory part is the non-Western part, right? It would be fine if they just said like, oh, if 40% of the people in this area are unemployed, or on benefits or whatever, then it’s technically a ghetto. I think that would be kind of an okay definition. But obviously the problematic part is saying if you’re from this part of the world, or this part of the world, then it changes it. That part is fucked up. Definitely. Yeah. I think Danish society is good because it is fairly inclusive, compared to other societies, let’s say. But there’s still room for improvement, of course. 

What do you feel like would be some of the strengths or opportunities that would come with the parallel society legislation? Are there any benefits to it?

Not really. I feel like it has to come from a place more of education and care, rather than a place of like authority forcibly moving people that’s fucked up.

I feel like it should be more like a community from the bottom up, rather than from the top down. It shouldn’t be enforced by the government like “you cannot live here or you cannot live here”. That’s fucked up. It should be more like, I don’t know, somehow trying to integrate the different areas, but from a community-based aspect – from people rather than just from the government saying “you’re not allowed to live here. We’re going to move all these people.” Because then that kind of galvanizes like it kind of creates, it just creates upset amongst those people and they feel wronged. And then that galvanizes their belief that this is unjust and it’s unfair. So it creates more problems between people rather than bringing people together, maybe has the opposite effect, I guess.

That makes a lot of sense  

Yeah. I would say it has to come from the people and things like this like community cafes and things like that yeah, I think that’s a good point yeah, from the people rather than just from the government or whoever saying we need to move these people.

And now that you live here in Mjølnerparken and you mentioned ‘community’, is there anything that you dream of for the neighborhood or for the community that you would like to be a part of? How would that look for example?

Yeah. I mean I think places like the community cafe is super important because it can just be a launch pad for some of the ideas that will come like I’m kind of a believer in that local people who live in the area they’re going to know what’s best for the area rather than people – like politicians or whatever people – deciding what is best for people in a different area that they don’t know what really is going on there, or what the problems are. So I think that’s why a community cafe or something like this is going to be important because it just gives a place for people to voice their concerns or their ideas about the future, what they want from the area, what kind of things they want to see happen around here, [and] gives them a place to actually meet. I think that’s a really important thing to be able to talk, be open, work it out, come to a solution, come to an agreement and push things forward rather than just someone else somewhere else, telling you oh I think this is going to be the best for your area, your local area, I do think the people in the local area they know what’s best to make this area better.

And now that you’re part of the local area?  

I would like to just see more, i guess yeah, more community-based things because it just brings people together and it will bring people together and so I’d like to see more community events more things like this and I know that in Mjølnerparken and there used to be a lot of things like this and I feel like maybe since they dispersed all these people. It actually had the opposite effect where it kind of destroyed the community – well not destroyed it, but fragmented it somehow and now we need to find a way to bring it all together.

What do you see yourself as an individual being able to do to sort of participate in creating community?  

I feel like I’d rather become part of something that already exists and already is here, that is already working and supports the people who already live here. I’d just like to join that and help that and push that forward; [Supporting] Something like this community Cafe [30] or other initiatives –rather than bring my own ideas about what could work. That’s kind of what my point is about, people in other places coming to another place and telling you like, “oh, this is what is going to work because this has worked somewhere else.” But I feel like local people know what works best. So as for me, I would like to just support what’s already happening here with the existing people to then push it forward, rather than to come up with my own solutions or something of what I think is going to make it all work out. Because I’ve only lived here for a few months. Whereas the people who have been living here for years and years, they’re going to know much more, what the real problems are like in the area. And maybe they have better solutions. The politicians of the government, they don’t know really what the issues are that are happening here. And so they’re not that qualified to give solutions to an area that they’re not really in touch with. The people who are really qualified to give solutions to an area, are the people who’ve already been living here. So I think my role would be to just support that and support places like this, which gives those people a voice or a way to connect with other people who live here. 

I think that’s a fair answer. I think what I also hear you saying is that with all due respect for that it is a community that has faced upheaval, then what you also believe is best, is supporting the community as it is.  

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Like, I didn’t know so much about Mjølnerparken before I moved here because you can only get so much information online or whatever. So I didn’t know so much about the area, what was going on here. Before I moved here, – I’ve only been here for a few months, – but now I’ve become much more aware about what is going on here. But of course, I’m not going to have the amount of awareness that someone who’s lived here for like a whole decade and has witnessed it before and after and all the changes and everything. So, yeah. I just want to listen and support that movement and see that community grow up; People-based movement. Rather than just coming here and saying like, “oh, I have these ideas of the solution.” Yeah. That’s not really helpful. 

Did you know about Mjølnerparken before you moved here?  

I knew about Mjølnerparken. Yeah. But I… And I knew that I knew some things about… Yeah. But I was not that aware. Before I moved here, I was not super aware about what was really going on here. And still not. I’m not really aware about what’s going on here. I’ve only lived here for a few months. So… 

Do you like living here?  

I do like living here a lot. And like, I’m very much like, I like the community. Like in Horsens, I had a kolonihave. So I really like the community aspect of living. I think that’s so nice in this area. But it is a shame. 

I’m just more down for the local politics than the national politics, you know? All the national politicians that talk about whatever – But we really need local people to make decisions on a local level to actually have an impact on that area.It’s kind of the equivalent of maybe some charity in this country, going to a foreign country and trying to help out another country. But how are they going to know what is helpful for that other country? The best thing they can do is actually not go there and provide support or just directly support people. But actually go there and take the ideas and solutions of what those people who actually live there, actually think would be best for that area, rather than just imposing their will on some third entity, you know? Local people will know what’s best for the local area. So that’s what we need to support. So I think that’s kind of my final thought. Rather than just pushing our narrative, what we think, onto them. That would be my final thought. 

That’s a good final thought.